THE GENETIC STRUCTURE OF THE COPTS AND MUSLIMS OF EGYPT 3: THE GENETIC STRUCTURE OF THE COPTS IS DISTINGUISHABLE FROM THAT OF THE MUSLIMS OF EGYPT
In the two previous articles, I spoke about the two opposing views on the matter of ethnic relationship between the Copts and Muslims of Egypt, and then on the study by Henn et al which showed for the first time the genetic structure of the Muslims of Egypt and compared it with those of neighbouring populations to show the effect of “back-to-Africa” gene flow, Arab migration and sub-Saharan slave trade in their blood.
Today, I publish here a quest article by Zack Shenouda on the important 2015 study by Dobon et al, which found that the Coptic genetic structure of the Copts is distinguishable from that of Egyptian Muslims.
Here is his article:
Dobon et al study was published in 2015. This study primarily analyzed 6 ethnic groups in Sudan. These include Copts, Beja, Ethiopians, Arabs, Nubians, and Darfurians. For clarity, the study also mentions that the Coptic population in Sudan, is the product of recent migration from Egypt. A previous 2008 study H.Y. Hassan et al, further corroborates Dobon’s point, by stating that the highly effective population size of the Coptic population in Sudan is the product of recent migrations from Egypt. Basically, the authors in both these studies, make it a point to clarify that the origin of this Coptic population, is from Egypt. The author in the 2015 study also makes this clear by demonstrating that Copts cluster closely together and they cluster in a way that remains differentiated from all other Sudanese groups in this study.
Dobon et al study compared this Coptic population to the Egyptian non-Coptic population.
This study used the external data from the Henn et al study, which provided information on the genomic data for Egyptian Muslims.
Dobon makes a comparative analysis between the Coptic sample and the non-Coptic Egyptian population(Egyptian Muslims). This non-Coptic Egyptian population is referenced as Egypt in his study. The study conducts this comparative analysis by using ADMIXTURE. Below were the ADMIXTURE results:
The ancestral components were labeled by five colors. These include North African/Middle Eastern (dark blue), Sub-Saharan (light blue), Coptic (dark green), Nilo-Saharan (light green) and Fulani (pink). As the analysis proceeds from K=2 to K=5, more details gradually emerge.
The study indicates that Copts show their own component and this is demonstrated at the K=4. The study claims that Copts specifically lack influence from Qatar, which is present in the Egyptian population. The author in this study believes that this discovery suggests, “Copts have a genetic composition that could resemble the ancestral Egyptian population, without the present strong Arab influence.”
Below are the components for Copts, Egypt (Egyptian Muslim), and Qatar at K=4.
Qatar Egypt Copts
While all three of these components still demonstrate the North Africa/Middle-Eastern ancestral component (dark blue) at K=4, we also we begin to notice sharp differences, with Copts demonstrating significantly more of the Coptic component (dark green) than both Qatari & the non-Coptic Egyptian population. We also notice that the Egyptian Muslim and the Qatari population demonstrate some Sub-Saharan Africa component (light blue). On the other hand, Copts don’t demonstrate any Sub-Saharan African component. It’s telling that when the analysis gets more detailed at K=4, we begin to see that the Egyptian non-Coptic population shows more similarities with the Qatar population, than with the Coptic population.
Why is this important? It’s been repeated in the past, that Copts and Egyptian Muslim are genetically indistinguishable. These claims were based on old studies, which have not explored genetics in the adequate amount exploration and detail required. Sameness claims are easy to make because they don’t require much exploration. For example in 2002, one study found that humans in general were 99.9% genetically identical [See here].
Sameness claims deceptive by omission. The level of detail is simply less, which yields a sameness conclusion. Sameness is claimed due to the incapability of finding the difference and missing the difference [See here].
It is now clear that as technology advances, we being to have the opportunity to explore the genome in a deeper manner and identify the genetic differences between Copts and Egyptian Muslims. Dobon’s study was one of the first to demonstrate just that and we can expect more to come in the future.
We still don’t have all the answers, but what we do know is Copts and Egyptian Muslims are genetically distinguishable. To deny this difference is to deny data. And for one group to demonstrate more of a component than the other is one way to demonstrate this difference. In other words, even if all groups have the same components, the frequencies of these components are what yield difference.
Copts and Egyptian Muslims are genetically distinguishable.
DIOSCORUS BOLES ON COPTIC NATIONALISM 
I read all three of your articles you posted on this topic and it’s filled with inaccuracies. I also sense a bit of prejudiced, bias and denial of not only copts african origin but also trying to deny the Muslims their Egyptian heritage as well. It is like u wish to ignore all studies that does not support your own prejudices. Firstly there is no such thing as a “Coptic” gene. Copts like most Egyptians share material and paternal DNA with other African populations from the North and the Horn. Some Copts also have DNA from the great lakes regions(Chad). The Coptic “gene” as you wish to call is an indigenous african DNA, that is also found in the Muslim population. The gene flow from the middle east isn’t so significant to say Muslims are of a different ethnicity. Egyptians, Muslim or christian, are genetically, for the most part African. Copts are not some separate, special and unique ethnicity on the continent. Secondly if u wish to use foreign admixture to make a case to who is a pure Egyptian or not then we might as well not call the Copts Egyptian. From ancient times Egyptians have intermarried with every foreign invading force that settled in the region including Christians from the middle east. The Coptic language isn’t even a pure Egyptian language but a mixture of Egyptian and Greek. Sorry to break it to you but the only way two languages can merge like that is if there is constant interaction with the two populations, including intermarriage. Some DNA studies already have shown this as well, with some Copts having paternal ancestry from the middle East and Europe(those aren’t indigenous genes btw). Also if you want to argue from a racial purity stance( racial purity doesn’t exist but lets pretend that it does for argument sake) then southern Egyptians are the most purest Egyptians whether they are Coptic or not. The African genetic component in upper Egypt is higher with little gene flow from Asia or Europe.
Your articles on this topic highlights a very serious problem with nationalist ideology.It has nothing to do with protecting the faith but more to do with trying to prove and justify prejudices. I understand that Christians have suffered discrimination for centuries in Egypt but to say that Muslim Egyptians are a separate nation is beyond ridiculous. Besides culturally there is no difference between the two groups.I also notice that Coptic “nationalist” are very insecure with it comes to there own racial classification. They dont want to be African because that would make them genetically link with Africans(which copts are) and they want to be viewed as “white people” So they conjure up these interesting myths of coptic uniqueness which is historically, linguistically and genetically incorrect.I even read yo article on music and i laughed. I have seen more Muslim Egyptians who are far more secure with being African than Copts . Which says something about Copts and the eurocentric world view they bought into. Maybe we shouldn’t call the Coptic Pope Patriarch of All Africa because God knows some of you dont want to be that………..OH THE HORROR LOL
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You are so confused. We have not spoken about a Coptic “gebe” but genome; and in doing that we have not said it’s either European or non-African. You also don’t understand what Admixure mean.
In the papers we talked about we simply presented the latest and most advanced genetic studies that proved that there is a genetic component specific to the Copts, and that is not shared with the Muslims of Egypt. Also, the Muslims have components that one does not find in the Copts.
The SNPS studies do prove a difference between the genome if the Copts and that of the Muslims of Egypt.
Rather than ranting nonsense try to critique the studies or present others that can disprove them.
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I think u are confused I am telling you that you are misinterpreting the study to support your bias. If you actually read the study it shows that North African Arabs, Nubians, Beja and, Ethiopians have that same dark green component. Unless you want to argue that those Arabs aren’t Muslim. Also it said that
“Copts share the same main ancestral component than North African and Middle East populations (dark blue), supporting a common origin with Egypt (or other North African/Middle Eastern populations). They are known to be the most ancient population of Egypt and at k = 4 (Fig.3), they show their own component (dark green) different from the current Egyptian population which is closer to the Arabic population of Qatar.”
In other words Copts share the same origin as the rest of Egypt but less admixture.from Qatar. It does not say that Egyptian Muslims are more genetically Arab than Copts. Which you were trying to imply. More importantly why is this even a surprise since it was already known that some Arabs migrated to Egypt and inter-marry with the local population. Of course Christians are not going to marry Arab Muslims but they did marry Arab Christians. You can say I was ranting nonsense but, it doesn’t invalidate what I said nor my assumptions on what you were trying to prove through these post. After all this is how you ended it
“Copts and Egyptian Muslims are genetically distinguishable.”
No where in the study does it say that, you came to that conclusion on your own. They only used EIGHTEEN people from each population ,Not enough of a sample to even make such a claim. So in reality the results are not a general representation of the genome of most copts and Muslims but of their sample. Which is why the study never come to the same conclusion as you. If you want to disagree with Islam on theological grounds that is fine and right. But to carve out none existent racial categories and twist scientific studies to justify your prejudices is disgusting and dare I say. UN-CHRISTIAN
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“In other words Copts share the same origin as the rest of Egypt but less admixture.from Qatar. It does not say that Egyptian Muslims are more genetically Arab than Copts. Which you were trying to imply.”
Wrong. The argument is that they are genetically distinct & there is a difference. Nothing more, nothing less.
“If you actually read the study it shows that North African Arabs, Nubians, Beja and, Ethiopians have that same dark green component.”
Wrong. Read the study carefully. Each component is composed of certain ancestral components. Also, the frequencies of individuals ancestral components differ between North African Arabs, Copts, Nubians, Beja and, Ethiopians.
Differences in ancestral components within each composition and differences in frequencies of individual ancestral component within each component, are what yield differences, between populations.
For example, the amount/frequency of dark green component is what indicates difference. Copts have MORE of the dark green than Arabs, Nubians, Beja and, Ethiopians. So it’s NOT the same dark green component as Copts.
Please read the study carefully take composition of components into account. Also, take frequency of each individual ancestral component, within each component composition into account. These differences are what distinguish components from one another.
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Thank you, Zack!
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““Copts and Egyptian Muslims are genetically distinguishable.”:
“No where in the study does it say that, you came to that conclusion on your own”
That’s the conclusion of the study. The study shows differences in ancestral components within each composition and differences in frequencies of individual ancestral component within each component between Copts and Egyptian muslims. If they were not genetically distinguishable, then they would have the same component composition, with the same individual ancestral component frequencies within each component composition.
But sense they demonstrate difference in ancestral composition and differ in frequency of individual ancestral components, then this indicates that they are genetically distinguishable.
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Again you are coming to that conclusion yourself. Copts were not even the main focus of the study. No where does it says that.(read the source) After all it was only 18 people from each population group that were tested. So to draw that conclusion is wrong and would be unscientific. As a matter of fact you can find many studies that prove that Muslims and Copts are genetically the same. Funny how no one wants to take about those studies. Even in this study it says that they have the same origins. It funny how you are wish to ignore that. Its not my problem that you are blinded by your own bias. But the study does not come to that conclusion but takes about its sample. it does not make a generalization of the population it studied. Only this blog post does that
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“After all it was only 18 people from each population group that were tested. So to draw that conclusion is wrong and would be unscientific”
You clearly don’t know what scientific is and the purpose of samples size. You don’t know samples are used to make inferences on population in empirical studies. You don’t know that this is randomized sample. You don’t know that 18 is more than enough and in fact, most genetic population studies that explore group differences, of this nature use a smaller number.
Please study this. It’s important that you learn this. http://www.unc.edu/~nielsen/soci708/mod8/soci708mod8.pdf
This is extremely troubling that you do not understand such a basic and fundamental scientific concept.
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“Again you are coming to that conclusion yourself. ”
Nope. That is what the study shows. I simply summarizing it. If they were not genetically distinguishable, then they would have the same component composition, with the same individual ancestral component frequencies within each component composition. Literally, the study demonstrates difference. If they were genetically indistinguishable, there would be no difference.
This is not hard to understand. I really don’t understand why this is too hard for you. The study could not be more clear. Study shows difference. If there was no difference, there would be no genetic distinction…but there is difference.
Why is this hard for you to understand?
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“The Coptic language isn’t even a pure Egyptian language but a mixture of Egyptian and Greek.”
Wrong. It’s an Egyptian language and native to Egypt. Egyptian natives adopted greek alphabet for efficiency but it’s distinct from Greek. For example Zulu adopted the latin alphabet but it’s not latin, it’s Zulu.
Coptic is within the same writing system as Hieroglyphic. It’s a product of it. The transition went from Hieroglyphic->Heiratic-> Demotic->Coptic. Coptic was used to translate Rosetta stone too.
http://www.mmdtkw.org/EGtkw0300-Unit3EgyptianWriting.html
Most Copts today decend from Copt-Copt marriage.
“We observe persistent elites and underclasses only in two cases. The first is an isolated elite with marital endogamy (as with Hindu castes in India, Muslims in India, or the Copts in Egypt, or Christians elsewhere in the Muslim world).”
http://www.iga.ucdavis.edu/Research/All-UC/conferences/huntington-2013/clark-paper
For a Copt to marry a greek or an Arab, usually meant covert to the Greek Orthodox Church or Sunni Islam, respectfully. Not all cases of course, but in most cases. Exceptions don’t make the rule. Most Copts adhere to the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria.
Also,there are no genetic cluster tests available that show they cluster with Greeks.Also, we know that Copts don’t cluster with Arabs.
Copts cluster very closely together. They don’t cluster with any black group or arabs. This indicates mixing with other races was restricted.
“Maybe we shouldn’t call the Coptic Pope Patriarch of All Africa ”
I agree. His official title is the “Pope of the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria.” That’s also the most consistent and oldest/most traditional title.
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Are you implying that coptic has no Greek? THE WORD COPT IS GREEK. LOL Tell me do u not say kyrie elison in church? lol Dont dare say that it this phrase is found in all oriental orthodox churches because its not. Listen not once did i say that it wasn’t native to Egypt but that to call it a pure Egyptian language is false. It borrowed a lot from Greek after all the Greeks ruled Egypt for quiet a long time. To say that there is no Greek in the Coptic language is just a blatant lie Actually there is no such thing as a pure language since most cultures borrowed phrases and words from one another. Coptic is no exception to that rule if you wish to believe in a myth that is on you. But history and linguistics say different. Coptic having a greek influence does it make it less Egyptian so have no idea why you would get defensive about that.
“Most Copts today decend from Copt-Copt marriage.
“We observe persistent elites and underclasses only in two cases. The first is an isolated elite with marital endogamy (as with Hindu castes in India, Muslims in India, or the Copts in Egypt, or Christians elsewhere in the Muslim world).For a Copt to marry a greek or an Arab, usually meant covert to the Greek Orthodox Church or Sunni Islam, respectfully. Not all cases of course, but in most cases. Exceptions don’t make the rule. Most Copts adhere to the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria.”
Again wrong there are records to support that there was intermarriage between Egyptians and Greeks before the 4th ecumenical counsel. As a matter of fact in the 1st century world most Egyptian elites had a Greek connection and Greek was consider the language of sophistication. Which is why Saint Shenouda spoke out against the use of Greek and advocated for the Coptic language. Secondly I never mention the inter-religious marriage but inter ethic marriage between christian.many christian Arabs at the time belong to the orenital orthodox tradition so there would have been not reason for them to convert. When the Arabs conquered Egypt there was a great influx of both muslim and Christian Arabs in Egypt. Who intermarried with the local population.There has already been proven through some studies which show some Coptic men have paternal DNA from Middle east. Intermarriage in North africa was not so much a big deal as it is now.
“Copts cluster very closely together. They don’t cluster with any black group or arabs. This indicates mixing with other races was restricted”
Again misreading your source. As i already explain above. its a sample of 18 people but you wish to draw a conclusion on a population of millions based on 18 people. there have already been studies that show the various genetic makeup of Copts, Each time they are more closely related to other north africans even in this study it said the same thing with the exception on no mixture from Qatar. the study also show that the same genetic component is found in other groups. Again read your source properly. for an Egyptian to speak about racial purity is ridiculous, Since it already known the Egyptians did intermarry with other people. Black Sudanese aren’t pure but yet you want to hold on to the purity myth
“I agree. His official title is the “Pope of the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria.” That’s also the most consistent and oldest/most traditional title.”
well i guess you should petition the Pope to end all missionary activity in the rest of Africa. since obviously you think he should be the patriarchy of the continent. God knows Black Africans have enough problems. They dont need people with identity and religious insecurities t teach them about God.
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“THE WORD COPT IS GREEK”
False. Aigýptios is greek for Egyptian. Copt is not.
“Are you implying that coptic has no Greek”
Respond to what I write. I don’t imply. You assume. Again, alphabet and language are distinct entities. Zulu incorporates latin alphabet but it’s not latin language nor a hybrid of latin/zulu language. Same with Coptic.It incorporates greek alphabet with additional demotic letters but it’s not a greek language nor a hybrid of Egyptian/greek lanaguage.
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You speak on issues from a position of complete ignorance or incompetence.This is very troubling.
You didn’t even know the purpose of a sample in empirical studies and how it relates to population. You didn’t know that the point of samples and random selection of samples is to make inferences on population. I’m still floored from this level of ignorance. It’s incredible. Wow.
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” Copts like most Egyptians share material and paternal DNA with other African populations from the North and the Horn. Some Copts also have DNA from the great lakes regions(Chad).”
Nonsense.
“Copts are not some separate, special and unique ethnicity on the continent.”
Of course they are. Most modern Copts today they share a faith tradition(Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria) that goes back to the 1st century & history that’s even older. They are a unique ethnicity by definition:
“an ethnic group; a social group that shares a common and distinctive culture, religion, language, or the like:”
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/ethnicity
Like I mentioned, they don’t cluster genetically with others. They cluster closely together. They don’t cluster with Arabs, Egyptian Sunnis or any black African groups from the horn.
They are a unique group.
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If want i say is nonsense you prove it. Copts like most egyptians are genetically related to the Berbers and horn Africans. that has been already proven in various studies. Skin colour and features have little to do with it.
“Of course they are. Most modern Copts today they share a faith tradition(Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria) that goes back to the 1st century & history that’s even older. They are a unique ethnicity by definition”
HA HA HA. So do Greeks, Syrians and Ethiopians. Again Copts are not unique. You act as if the coptic church is the only orthodox church that can trace its roots to the 1st century. Please stop because this is getting silly now. I think you are confusing religion with ethnicity. Which is why you are so hell bend in saying Muslims egyptians are different. Most muslim Egyptians are descended from Christians who convert to islam. That’s about it. Copts aren’t not a separate ethnicity from them. Copts just practice a different religion.
“Like I mentioned, they don’t cluster genetically with others. They cluster closely together. They don’t cluster with Arabs, Egyptian Sunnis or any black African groups from the horn.
They are a unique group.”
Again misreading your source. the study does not say he copts are genetically unique compare to other populations but that they lack admixture from qatar as compared to the sample of muslim egyptians
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From what I have read from your several replies, you are an afro centrist. Your position is clear, but I don’t understand your obsession with the Copts, and your desire to deprive them of the unique identity they have, be it genetic, linguistic or cultural. I hope your end game is not to say that the Copts are not the legitimate descendents of the Ancient Egyptians and that black Africans are.
I have all respect for black Africans, but I have no time here to discuss such absurd claim.
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i ultimately agree with u, but i am coming at it from an different angle. The facts that Copts are found to be genetically distinct than Arab Egyptians just means , to me, that they are MORE AFRICAN THAN ARAB. ….but make no mistake. WE AGREE.
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Thats the thing tho LMAO. they have more European DNA than modern day muslims. These statistics and graphs are all wrong. Thats why you’ll see typical Egyptians are brown and dark skinned with afrocentric features, whilst the copts (christians) look MAJORLY European. I’ve been to Egypt many times and they look so greek it’s unbelievable. If you compared ancient egyptian art to todays people, you would immediately say the people you claim are “arabs” are actually African, whilst the copts are literally majorly greek roman mixes. But then again what do you expect from a coptic nationalist website LMAOOOOOOO.
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I allowed your comment only as a specimen to represent how many Muslim Egyptians think – utterly devoid of scientific backing, and simply commenting about a major scientific research, “all these statistics and graphs are wrong”!
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“gene” not “gibe”, and “of” not “if”, as a matter of correction.
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The question is why do you wish to be separate from everyone. Each population is genetically related to another population. Race is a socail construct and has no scentific basis. You being genetically related to Berbers and horn Africans and Egyptian Muslims has no effect on your faith. But yet you act as if the Coptic church is crumble if you aren’t “unique.”(whatever that would mean). Christainity is not culture or racial club and i wish that theorthodox stop treating it like it is. Christ came to bring people together but look like you guys dont want that. You want to be seperate and unique(even if you are not) Go figure
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“As a matter of fact you can find many studies that prove that Muslims and Copts are genetically the same. ”
1. Provide them. Where?
2. Older studies that did not penetrate the genome as deep as this 2015 study. Sameness claims can be mad easily by identifying superficial characteristics. This is the most recent one and it demonstrates differences. It’s been conducted multiple times and peer-reviewed.
“ts a sample of 18 people but you wish to draw a conclusion on a population of millions based on 18 people.”
Do you know what sample means in an empirical study and the purpose of samples? See below:
-The sample size is an important feature of any empirical study in which the goal is to make inferences about a population from a sample.-
It was a randomized sample size and that is more than enough. Samples are chosen randomly and inferences are made. That’s the nature of study. That’s actually more then usual. I’ve seen studies with samples of 10 usually. Sample and population are two distinct entities with the former used to make inferences on the latter. It’s a standard practice and done for practical reasons in empirical studies.
Provide sources & studies to support your claims? I have yet to see any evidence from you. Also, respond to what I actually write. Don’t straw-man me or make assumptions of my claims.
“. Copts like most egyptians are genetically related to the Berbers and horn Africans.”
Evidence? Data? Where?
“Again wrong there are records to support that there was intermarriage between Egyptians and Greeks before the 4th ecumenical counsel.”
Where? What was the degree of this? Data? Where?
“there have already been studies that show the various genetic makeup of Copts, Each time they are more closely related to other north africans even in this study it said the same thing with the exception on no mixture from Qatar.”
Evidence? Data? Where?
“HA HA HA. So do Greeks, Syrians and Ethiopians.”
Each have their own church. Coptic Orthodox church of Alexandria is founded by native Egyptians & uses the Coptic language. None of the other churches do that.
“Again misreading your source. the study does not say he copts are genetically unique compare to other populations but that they lack admixture from qatar as compared to the sample of muslim egyptians”
On the contrary, you are having comprehension or reading issues. See the chart I posted multiple times and look at the red circles that represent the Copts. You will notice in that chart that they do not cluster with any group. Also, respond to what I actually type. The study identified genetic distinction. Yes, the lack of admixture from Qatar IS a genetic distinction. You are misreading. You are the one not comprehending.
“but yet you want to hold on to the purity myth”
Said nothing about pure. Respond to the words that I type.
“Listen not once did i say that it wasn’t native to Egypt but that to call it a pure Egyptian language is false”
It is a pure Egyptian language.Founded by natives. Natives adopted alphabet for efficiency & added additional letters. Used it to write and express their language in a more efficient manner than Demotic(predecessor). Alphabet is distinct from language. Using greek alphabet doesn’t make it a greek/Egyptian hybrid language. That’s not how linguistics work.
You have not provided any sources for your unsubstantiated claims. A lot of misreading and incomprehension issues on your part.
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“Race is a socail construct and has no scentific basis.”
Nonsense.
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Wow you think I am Afrocentrist.lol Excuse me but what Afrocentrist claims that non-black people are Africans? You dont even know my race, did you ever think I can be an Egyptian myself?? lol.
I said that copts are related to other African groups like the Berbers and Ethiopians,what wrong with that? NO POPULATION EXIST IN ISOLATION. It has been proven through many studies. Afrocentrist would call Copts invaders not Africans. So obviously I believe that copts are descended from ancient Egypt. But i do not believe in the purity myth that many people in the church like to push on others. Not only due to the act that it isn’t true,but because it denies other Egyptians their connection to their christian past. But have no idea why you would even bring ancient Egypt up. The discussion was about the ethnicity of Egyptian Muslims in relation to the Copts. So I have no idea where you would get the idea that I’m a Afrocentrist..
Also please tell me how I am depriving copts of their identity? Is it because i wont believe in the same unproven myths as you. Besides i dont think i have that much influence on people to make them lack an identity.
But if you believe calling Copts Africans deprives them of their identity instead of reinforce it, then you got more problem with Africans than you think.
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You see the red circles here that represent Copts right? Can you understand this simple concept that Copts do not genetically cluster with any black african group or Arabs or Egyptian muslims? Can you understand or is this too hard for you?
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So the Copts are closer to Ethiopians, Beja and Nubians than they are to Arabic Egyptians. The Arab group in that study is probably native Copts or Beja who switched from Christianity to Arabs without intermarrying with Arabs.
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I don’t know where you got your probability from.
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No Jackson. The “sudanese arabs” are not native copts. And if they were native Copts who didn’t intermarry with arabs(or other non-copts), than they WOULD cluster with Copts…..but they DON’T.
Beja, Nubians, Ethiopians, Sudanese arabs, do not genetically cluster with Copts.
Beja, Nubians, Ethiopians, Sudanese arabs do genetically cluster together though.
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Very interesting study and comments. My grandmother was from Cairo, my grandfather was from Aswan. In Arabic, your last name is your father’s name. e.g. If my name is Jack and I have a son called Max, his name will be Max Jack …. and so it continues like this. Going back six generations. All of my ancestors on my paternal side had strictly Arabic names.
For reference, I am Christian so I sometimes see Copts around. Whenever I see an Egyptian, I feel like I know just by looking at them if they are Copt or Muslim. Of course this is unscientific, and I am not correct in my guesses all the time, but I do believe that there are racial differences between Egyptian Muslims and Copts, and this study seems to show that they are somewhat significant. I really enjoyed reading the articles!
Cheers.
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I am a Sudanese Coptic & yes our origin is Egyptian…I believe we are all mixed! I did a DNA test and showed roughly 47% north African…12% East African…34% middle East.
5% jewish…I believe alot of us lack European DNA…if you look at North West Africans (Algeria, Tunisia, lybia etc.) They have more European DNA! Egypt & Sudan were one country at one time & was upper Egypt & Sudan was lower Egypt so I’m sure Copts mixed with others but not much…
Our pope used to be the Pope of the Ethiopian church until they got their own…the Coptic & Ethiopian church are sister churches…we are under the same umbrella…we are both the first & oldest Christian churches in Africa.
If more Copts did a DNA test , it would give us a clearer understanding.
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@ CopticQueen. I have a theory that people of the Maghreb (Libya, Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco) would have generally more of a European influence in DNA than Egyptians based on 2 things. Firstly, the fact that the shortest part of the straight of Gibraltar which separates Spain (Europe) and Morocco (Africa) is 14km, making gene mixing a lot easier due to the short distance. Secondly The Nile stretches through Egypt through Sudan right down to Uganda in Sub-Saharan Africa. I think that the nile would have had at least some impact on Sub-Saharan Africans mixing with northerners/Egyptians.
However, I believe that the French Campaign in Egypt from 1798-1801 along with the general British presence would have led to Egyptians adopting some French culture (French as a second language, for example).
To clarify, in my last post i mentioned that “all of my paternal ancestors had Arabic names”. I meant to say that going back at least 6 generations, my forefathers were Muslims (as the names were strictly Muslim), as was my father. However, I am simply a Christian, not a Copt, but a Christian. Recently, I have been meeting a few more Copts and talking to them to help me on my journey and none of them have even suggested that I am not of Coptic origin as they don’t know about my family history. This got me thinking that at some point around the Islamisation of Egypt, many Egyptian Copts would have converted to Islam, therefore, many Egyptian Muslims would have hints of Coptic ancestry in them.
Food for thought if nothing else 🙂
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@ zac, another theory is some egyptian copts converted to islam & muslims gradually outbreed copts overtime. we know that muslims in egypt have higher birth rate than copts. http://www.pewforum.org/2015/04/02/middle-east-north-africa/
@ Copticqueen you should upload your results to gedmatch to get the more basic breakdown via ancestral components. https://www.gedmatch.com/login1.php
Those geographic indicators don’t tell us much. Copts actually have less number of ancestry components than most groups & thus one of the least “mixed” groups there is(mixed is a meaningless term in this context anyway & if it applies, it applies to virtually anyone. it’s like saying “we are all human.”).
Here are results of coptic samples. Notice how similar they are?
There is much more genetic difference between Copts & Egyptian muslims than between croats & serbs & Bosnians, yet there is this active politically-motivated effort to obscure the difference between Copts & Egyptian muslims.
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ancient egypt was not one country with sudan or nubia it was militarily occupation .
Ancient egyptians dna is middle eastern in origin same as copts , any mix with africans is not authentic its related to much recent periods.
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@Zack Shenouda I agree that many Copts converted to Islam and that Islam became the dominant religion relatively quickly due to many things including the pressure of the Jizyah etc.
I also think that regardless of one’s religion, an Egyptian is an Egyptian, but in that being said, I think that the Egyptian Muslims have more of an Arab admixture than Copts obviously, but for example, a person of the Arabian peninsula would have none or little Egyptian Dna. Egypt is such a mixed heritage place anyway, it is the bridge from east to west, Africa to Asia and Africa to Europe and I’m pretty sure (correct me if I’m wrong) the ancient Egyptians weren’t particularly nomadic which would have led to different groups forming in different regions of the country (look at the phenotype image of someone from Alexandria compared to someone from Aswan or a Nubian).
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Most likely what happened is a group of Copts converted to Islam and interbred with west African/southern Levantine and gradually outbred Coptic Christian majority overtime.
Remember, Egyptian Muslims have a higher birth rate than Copts and had some reproductive advantages in the form of polygamy being permitted in Islam and how Islam permits Muslim men to marry Christian women. Egyptian Muslims average about 16% southern Levantine component and about 6-7% west African component. Copts and AE mumy samples lack both these components. This distrubtion of a mummy from about 800 BC is very close to the average Copt distribution. https://twitter.com/BewilderedCopt/status/960938004280954880?ref_src=twcamp%5Eshare%7Ctwsrc%5Em5%7Ctwgr%5Eemail%7Ctwcon%5E7046%7Ctwterm%5E1
There is also more genetic difference today between Copts and Egyptian Muslims than the difference between Bosnians and Serbs. Copts today largely don’t genetically cluster with Egyptian Muslims.
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the samples for “muslim egyptians” was taken from cairo, cairo is mixed with african slave trade and other arabs.
rural egyptians are same as copts and they are the majority of egyptian population about 80% both didn’t mix at all and have the least admixture , also both still retain most of the native identity of egypt culturally,linguistically,genetically.
also remember that coptic component is nothing but another variant of the Western-euroasian ancestry.same as arabian component.. so genetically they are brothers or related people ancient egypt-north african berbers are related genetically with the middle east.
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I have approved your comment, but I do not agree with it. It is a myth that rural Egyptians are same as Copts or that they didn’t mix at all.
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Your claims have been refuted here. You’re WRONG.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Egypt/comments/g62uff/on_the_alleged_genetic_differencesorigins_of/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
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Rather than sending several doubtful links, why can you write to tell us why we are wrong.
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A certain small but distinct percentage of modern Muslim Egyptians are of full or partial Ottoman or Mamluk ancestry. Ottoman ancestry may come from Balkan, Caucasian, Anatolian and other light-skinned Muslims. A certain non negligible part of modern Egyptians comes from Southern Egypt and Arabic speaking Sudan. Those southern Muslim regions have larger birth rates and still have, than more urban and northern regions and they unceasingly feed with unskilled labor emigrants the lower Egypt part. They become a stratum of economically poor Muslim Egyptians and gradually shape Northern Egypt’s ‘racial’ picture, while the Ottoman-descended or partially Ottoman-descended Egyptians are usually the most prominent or rich and have lower birth rates.
Due to Islam and a large influx of foreign Islamic peoples inside the gene pool of Muslim Egyptians all these centuries, they are certainly distinct from Copts who when it comes to marrying outside, they usually marry with Greeks, Lebanese and more light-skinned people usually, making differences more acute.
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The study did not talk about genetic difference. It’s only mentioned carrying some African genes + what is meant by Copts here are the Copts of Sudan, not Egypt, and this is what the study mentioned Because Egyptians are not separated from the Copts in most genetic studies ….!
For your information, there is no difference between the Copts of Sudan and the Egyptians in general
Dobon Study,
Firstly, this study is not a reference, that is, a study that we cannot rely on in identifying the components
The author of the study, Dobon, linked this component to migration to Africa, and this component appeared at the value of k = 4, in the Copts of Sudan, or specifically in the Copts of Khartoum, and among the Beja, Ethiopians, Arabs of Sudan and Nuba, and here we must clarify that it is a general component that includes other ethnicities.
The component is general and includes the Arabs of Sudan, the Beja, Nubia Sudan, and the Ethiopians, but it cannot be blessed with all, because for example, the Copts of Dongola in Sudan
They carry ingredients that we can say negro, and different from Khartoum Copts.
The examined samples are very few. -Approximately 27 people from one village only, I mean, we cannot extend this component to all Copts of Khartoum.
Copts of Khartoum in the same study show the same Egyptian component in the beginnings of K, specifically at K-2/3
The study did not say that the Copts are distinguished and that the Egyptians are Arabs
In Hollfelder et al (2017), this study used the same samples as the dobon study
I left a text at the end of the study stating that there is no difference between the Egyptian Muslims and the Copts of Egypt and they are slightly similar genetically to the Copts of Sudan
She stated that the Copts of Sudan are mixed with Africans to a large extent
Did not mention any study of them Copts of Egypt Because Egyptians are not separated from the Copts,
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The sample size was adequate as representative. Further, the Copts of Sudan, whether from Omdurman, or Khartoum, or Dongola have all come from Egypt, and they kept marrying within themselves. They all came to Sudan after Muhammad Ali sent the first Coptic clerks to Sudan in 1839. So, saying that they are different genetically or to the Copts in Egypt is just rubbish.
The study is clear in its conclusions, and I don’t need to repeat them here. Anyway, a big genetic study of the Copts is forthcoming, and it shall tell us about the genetic differences between the Copts and non-Copts in Egypt. And by non-Copts I mean the Muslims of Egypt (or the vast majority of them) whose roots are traced to other than ancient Egypt.
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To add more to Disocorus reply, even at the most statiscally supported model in Dobon (2015) known as K=3, the overall distribution of Egypt still resembles Qatar more than Copts. That is a significant difference between Copts & Egyptians(noncopts). You don’t even need to look at K 4-5 to substantiate this. Dobon(2015) also states that Copts in Sudan migrated from Egypt to Sudan in the past 200 years & Hasan(2008) makes it clear that Copts in Sudan are unlikely to been significantly influenced genetically by their time in Sudan. Dobon(2015) also shows no indication that Copts in Sudan have been significantly influenced genetically by their time in Sudan.
Hollfelder et al (2017) does not say there is no difference between Copts & Modern Egyptians(noncopts). The main purpose of that study was measuring Neanderthal admixtures among populations & they found Copts & Egyptians have different percentages of Neanderthal admixture. Hollfelder et al (2017) also describes Copts as a distinct ethnicity from Egyptians.
Also Hollfelder(2017) does not use the same samples as Dobon(2015). Hollfelder(2017) got their samples from Babiker(2011). In contrast Dobon(2015) collected their own samples via salvia samples organized based on self-reported ethnicities. Not that it matters much but pointing this out to show that the user who posted the his comment on 12/3 either has not read these studies carefully enough.
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Hi Sir , your study is made from copts from Sudan , which has YDNA 45 % J , but I heard there is study in copts of upper egypt , there is no YDNA J , but mostly 70 % E1B1B , how true is that?
my question in another way is , what is the exact component of Coptic y DNA , that gather all copts together please? what is the % of J , E1B1B in it
regards
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Again, there has been no proper and representative study of the Coptic genome. This is still awaiting.
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Mr Dioscorus Mr Zack shenouda , please clarify this , my understanding is coptic component is taken from dobon study in copts of sudan , my understanding also they have 45 % component J , but my question is does this represent the copts in general? there is a study on wikipedia copts has 74 % E , zero J , what is your answer please? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_the_Near_East
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There hasn’t been a proper and representative study of the Coptic genome. This study is still awaiting. What is interesting in the study conducted in Sudan is that the Copts’ genome there was found to be different from that of Muslim Egyptians. This is the interesting finding from a scientific point of view. The Copts will need a bigger study for more facts.
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Reblogged this on SocialDynamos.WordPress.com.
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